Posted by Nikos on August 15, 2001 at 18:32:33:
In Reply to: Re: Greek Muslims posted by Maya on August 15, 2001 at 15:06:34:
I hope you don't think my aim is negative, because that is not my intent. I think that BOTH Byzantium and Ancient Greece were remarkable societies. I am just trying to see peoples views regarding the two societies relationship. Often as Greeks (I know you said you weren't) we tend to think that there was a perfect continuation from Ancient Greece to the present. "Modern Greeks are the same as Ancient Greeks, Byzantine Greeks, Ottoman period Greeks, post-revolution Greeks." (with this I do not mean that we are not ancestrally the same Greeks, but rather I am talking about all of the characteristics of these identities coexisting together at the same time in our modern Greek identity). There is DEFINATELY still a continuation/evolution of what it was to be a Greek. But we adopted a new (over time) identity in the Byzantine period which conformed with the new theological doctrine and social structure of this period. This is not at all bad, the non-human world also evolves over time. This isn't to say that the prior self was not good, it was good for that time, but our environment changes and calls for new definitions and structures. There were great achievements in Byzantium, (it was the "center" of the world for most of the empires existence), and I appreciate it and I am proud of it as much as I am of Ancient Greece, and the post-Ottoman period. But it is important to realize that we (Greeks) did decide to give up much of our ancient past as Byzantium evolved, or else we could not have been true to the new theological doctrine of that period. The importance for me in realizing decisions the Greeks made (good/bad) is to assist me when I discuss with people Greeks and Greece. It is kind of like when I see Greeks excluding the fact that the military junta of Athens invaded Cyprus, and basically gave Turkey the right to use its guaranteeor status as outlined in the The Treaty of Zurich. I have found that when you exclude pertinent information to a story, because it may have been negative/destructive, people then think that all of the substance of your story is false or molded to fit your biased intentions. Usually all of the facts are the best way to have people understand your view. Most people I talk to about Greek/Turkish relations, lean towards the Greek side, even Turks, because Turkey's post-Cold War foreign and domestic policies have continued to go against international norms, they continue to make claims and provacative actions against there neighbors (Greece, Syria, Armenia, Cyprus) against their own population (Kurds, orthodox muslims, women), which emphasizes the continuum of aggressive behavior Turks have had against the ethnic groups of their immediate neighborhood.
My intent is not to rate Ancient Greece as better than Byzantium, or vice versa. The two can exist as highpoints in the evolution of Hellenism, without needing to be in competition with eachother (although in the intial transition period Christ did have to compete with the old pagan gods, but transitions of power and definitions of societal structure need to compete to define themselves). But it is important to note how this change from Ancient Greece to Byzantium occurred, why, and how it differs from the previous structure. Thanks for your comments.
: I see that you are anything but lazy:)
: Honestly, I do not fully understand what is your
: aim.So I prefer to stop here-I'm not enough qualified in ancient religions.As for my understanding of the topic from the cultural point of view- you already know it.All the best to you!
: : Maya wrote: "Concerning the history of Ancient Greece-come on, it has nothing to do with religion, but with the creation of unique culture which later became the basis of what is called now European culture!"
: : Didn't the ancient Greeks have a religion???? Wasn't this the same religion that the Romans adopted, and why the Roman Senate did not agree with Constantine and his one god, so therefore he established a Christian capital in the east? Weren't the ancient gods outlawed in Byzantium?
: : Nikos
: : : Niko, you know very well, that having this or that mothertongue has nothing to do with being Greek or say, Russian, and so on. A lot of Greeks living abroad do not speak Greek, but sometimes they are bigger Greeks than those living in Greece.Russian Jews speak neither Iddish nor Hebrew- they are still Jews. Russian Germans do not know German-they did not stop being Germans. It's not the question of the language, but of many other things. Concerning the history of Ancient Greece-come on, it has nothing to do with religion,but with the creation of unique culture which later became the basis of what is called now European culture!
: : :
: : : : Minos and Maya,
: : : : I have two questions. Since Minos wrote the following "You give up the right to be Greek when you turn your back on your proud history", and Maya agreed, did the Greeks who became Christian turn their backs on the proud history of Ancient Greece, and cease to be Greeks? Considering that many Asia Minor Greeks spoke Turkish (and no Greek)because of the 500 year occupation, were these people not Greek?
: : : : Nikos
: : : : : Fully agree with you!
: : : :
: : : : : : There is no such thing as a Greek Muslim. You give up the right to be Greek when you turn
: : : : : : your back on your proud history. And yes there are Greek Catholics, Jews, Protestants, but not Muslims, for none of these religions enslaved us like the Muslims. You want to be a Muslim, that's fine. I respect your choice and your right to do so but, you are no longer Greek and should be treated as such.
: : : : : :
: : : : : : Greek Luv
: : : : : :
: : : : : : : And that's the key of the problem, Lena. Every terrorist should be considered an enemy of
: : : : : : : the menkind and treated accordingly.But somehow McVeigh was punished-and rigtly, but those who bombed Twin Towers received only life imprisonment. Why? Take also in consideration, that such persons as Unabomber are individuals.
: : : : : : : And islamic terrorists can find you everywhere. Do you remember the series of bombings in Paris subway perpetrated by algerian fanatics? The PanAm
: : : : : : : airliner? The list can go on and on. No need for the media to create negative picture,really!
: : : : :
: : : : : : : : and maybe you will be the next victim of a Unabomber or Timothy McVeigh.
: : : : : : : : : Oh,ya, they are so nice and so cultural people, especially the suicide bombers, killing innocent
: : : : : : : : : women and children, and the crouds in the streets of muslem towns celebrating the death of these women and children, and the mothers promising that all their children will be shahids.
: : : : : : : : : Wake up and open your eyes! "Bombarded with negative images", indeed! Because you in the West will be the next victim of these nice people.
: : : : : : : :
: : : : : : : : :
: : : : : : : : : : I'd just like to stress that it is the minority of Muslims who are barbarians. We in the West just happen to be bombarded by the most negative images/examples of them.
: : : : : : : : : : : : that are no greek muslims...muslims are barbarians
: : : : : : : : : : : And do you know why they are barbarians? Unfortunately, there is only a handful of muslims out there that truly follow the Quoran. Majority of them have misconstrued the translation and have implemented it in their own way, therefore, the rest of us see the misconstrued ways. Again, you get the ones that verbally say they are Muslim and yet they follow nothing from the Quoran, i.e., drink alcohol, don't pray, beat their wives, .... then you get the extremists, i.e. Hesbala, no need to explain there.....
: : : : : : : : : : : Unfortunately, the handful I mentioned above are the minority and we do not see the REAL meaning of Muslim.....
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