Posted by Sp|no999 on March 15, 2002 at 02:38:37:
In Reply to: Re: His mother didnīt accept me - What planet are you from? posted by ekaterini on March 14, 2002 at 22:03:49:
Oops, double post. Sorry. Ignore the previous. Here's the completed response...
Yet another passionate response that is nothing more than an emotional barb directed at my person. I'd give anything to see a response that actually attempts to challenge my original posts with a semblance of intelligence.
I will certainly admit that my own prejudice colored the content of my initial response. I produced a few hard facts in the hopes that my assertion would become more unassailable by the anticipated attacks. After all, an opinion is only as valid as the information it is based upon. Obviously I got a little carried away. In any event I believe I accurately answered Lena's query as to why her parents are giving her the silent treatment.
Am I from the South? Do you mean Southern China? How about the South Pacific? Bali Hai and all that? Oh, I get it; you're drawing on a stereotyped generalization of people who live in the southern areas of the United States! Very clever!
Am I a member of the KKK? Given my own dating experiences with women of ethnicities clearly on their hate list I doubt that they would even consider me for membership!
'...My own sheltered "ideal" world'? What on earth are you trying to say? I do live in the real world. I am a New York City resident; born and raised. My beliefs are the by-product of a lifetime of observation, experience and yes, 'book smarts'. I pride myself on being cognizant of what actually happens in the 'real world' as opposed to subscribing to the nonsense presented via the plebeian opiates known as television and cinema. Obviously you seem to be one of countless people raised by these institutions. Are your opinions truly your own or are they the result of a lifetime of having other people think for you?
Are groundless accusations and insults the best you people can do?
: :You are pretty book smart spitting out all your little tidbits of knowledge. Where are you from, the South? and do you belong to the kkk? Do you live in the real world or your own sheltered "ideal" world ? Your commnents are extremly offensive and rascist. I really hope that your posts do not give other people the wrong impressions of Greeks.
: Based upon your respective comments I don't think any of you actually bothered to read my entire post. It is obvious from your emotionally charged responses that you only skimmed through my post, concentrating only on certain phrases and my own open prejudice. Now for my response...
: : How dare you refer to me as a Nazi! I am not in possession of blond hair, blue eyes or high cheekbones. As far as I know none of my ancestors hail from Northern Europe. I do not believe that Germanic and Scandinavian peoples are the world's 'master race'. I despise extreme left and right wing governments in all their forms. Furthermore since I am not a Nazi I am therefore not an anti-semite! Such prejudice would be shockingly hypocritical when you consider that I've dated Arab and Jewish women. Finally and most importantly, I am not a proponent of genocide! Hitler used a sickly form of pseudo science to proclaim Jews and Slavs as inferior and thus could not back up such claims with scientific proof. This was because the proclaimed inferiority of said groups was necessary to justify Nazi expansionism into Central and Eastern Europe.
: : You might find it amusing to know that many brainwashed Americans such as yourself also rely on a twisted form of pseudo science to overlook the basic differences between human beings; a subconscious attempt to overlook the cold uncomfortable facts that form the basic tenets of natural selection (commonly referred to as EVOLUTION), a theory that has been unsuccessfully challenged for over 150 years! The alarming facts and figures I've quoted are not drawn from racist texts or dubious sources. I am quoting from a wide variety of historical texts as well as published statistics readily found at US government websites (FBI, US Census, Center for Disease Control, etc.). Decades of psychometric testing (i.e., IQ tests) in the west have shown that there is a measurable and definitive gap in intelligence between Africans, Europeans and Asians (specifically those from East Asia: Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese, etc...). No surprise that such differences in intellect also correlate to varying rates in violent crime, illegitmacy, academic performance, socio-economic status, etc...
: : Jacquie, I never said illegitimacy was an African phenomenon! In the United States approximately 25% of all European American children are born out of wedlock; a stark contrast to the %75 illegitimacy rate found in African Americans. I do not have the exact figures for Asian Americans but I do know for a fact that it is lower than %25.
: : Yes, Greeks can be quite ethnocentric, to the point where their prejudice is open and unabashed. However, if any of you had bothered to actually read my first post and if you actually had a clue about the vast world outside of the United States (where most of the world's population also happens to reside) then you would be shocked to learn that my views are quite readily found elsewhere and are reflected in peoples about as racially and culturally different from Greeks as you can get.
: : Do you think if this was a forum for the international community of any other ethnicity that Lena's post would have been more warmly received? If you want to hear your own uneducated, emotional drivel reflected back at you then frequent some American Online forums about multiculturalism, integrationism or whatever else tickles your ignorant fancy.
: : If you want a dose of reality without having to read 'silly', boring books that have to do with history, science or statistics then do the following. The next time you take a trip abroad steer clear of the resorts and areas frequented by tourists. Try wandering far off the beaten path and open your eyes and ears to the true mentality of the people whose culture and society is nothing more to you than an exotic dish, strange language and postcard vista. Talk to them, ask them about the same 'controversial' issues which you currently believe are limited to that of Greeks. See how they feel about these same issues. I guarantee their answers will shock and horrify you. You will never look at the world the same way again.
: : : When I read this message I was dumbfounded. I dated a greek man for almost two years. During that time I fell pregnant and had his son who is now five years old. My son has never seen his father's family. We split when my son was a year old. His father left without even a look over his shoulder. I haven't seen him since. I doubt they even know about my son. If the person who posted the racist views knew anything he would know that the behaviour and irresponsibility shown by my son's father is seen throughout every ethnic group - If my son's father was black I am sure that he would say that I should not expect anything better from an African. I pity any modern day person who has the same views expressed by this Hitler. Hitler stated on several occasions that jews were not entitled to the same rights as german catholics because they were not on par morally or intellectually. I just pray that your views are not in-line with the majority of greeks. I would suggest the writer of the offensive material wake-up and get educated, because clearly he is not. The lack of disgust shown by the majority of recipients is also quite disgusting, and this in addition to my own experiences makes me very wary of any association with greek people period - rightly or wrongly.
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: : : : What's with all the HATRED on this message board? first greek muslims, now africans. I never knew Greek people had such strong racist beliefs! I used to enjoy reading these posting...now i'm just disturbed by it!
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: : : : The fact that your parents accepted your brother's inter-ethnic dating relationships with Irish, Korean and Indian women is not because he is the boy! You are making up a convenient excuse so that you can overlook the fact that your parents are tolerant of certain ethnic groups but not Africans. In fact, you might be shocked to learn that parents of those same ethnic groups object just as strongly to the prospect of one of their children dating an African as Greek parents do.
: : : : : What it really boils down to is that most Asiatic and European peoples are civilized, Africans are not. Countless studies conducted in the USA have shown Africans to rank highest in violent crime, rate of sexually transmitted diseases, illegitimacy (over 75%!) and number of sexual partners. It should also come as no surprise to know that African-Americans have the lowest per capita income and the lowest level of education. Is this because of the legacy of slavery or skin color? No. Contrast African performance with East Asians (Korean, Chinese, Japanese, etc...) who occupy the opposite end of the income/academic spectrum. They are clearly different from Europeans and Africans so why do they suceed where Africans do not? Do you think African underachievement is a phenomenon limited to the USA? Do yourself a favor and pour over the countless history books that reinforce this fact with recorded proof. For thousands of years Africans have been exposed to Egyptian, Semitic, Hamitic, Berber, Persian, Indian and European civilizations via trade and conquest and despite the constant exposure have never been able to successfully absorb said groups' scientific advances. If it wasn't for Arabic and European colonialism and more recently, investment by international corporations, many parts of Africa would be in an even more primitive state than they are now!
: : : : : But I digress, your parents may not be historians, anthropologists or statisticians but it doesn't take a PhD for them to notice who lives in the bad neighborhoods, who is responsible for the disproportionate number of crimes and who is walking around with the most fatherless children. Even to an uneducated fool these things are evident in everyday life and are perennial images in electronic and printed media. Do you think your family members don't take notice of the world around them? Do you think they didn't notice the performance of your African and Asian classmates in those diverse schools you attended as a child? I don't think you give your family enough credit.
: : : : : Your problem is despite your Greek upbringing you cannot come to terms with the fact that tragically, American television and popular culture have done more to mold your views, morals and sensibilities than anything your family has done for you. I cannot blame your parents for acting as they did. Just because you're their daughter doesn't mean they have to accept your despicable behavior, especially now that you're an adult. Using your own line of reasoning why isn't it your responsibility to unconditionally accept the judgment of your parents? After all, they fed, clothed and loved you as a child. In return, all you've given them is a proverbial spit in the face. So why does it surprise you that they respond accordingly? It's tough not being their little darling anymore, isn't it? Time to grow up princess, it's a cold cruel world out there...
: : : : : In case you're wondering I am third generation American on both sides of the family (Greek and Italian). Despite being a second generation American my mother still speaks Greek fluently and has one foot firmly planted in tradition. But do you know what? My parents' tolerance of my own dating experiences practically mirrors that of your own! Sure, my mother and father are proud of their backgrounds and would prefer if I brought home a nice Greek or Italian girl but it is extremely hard for them to point the finger at the few Chinese and Arab girls I've dated and say anything negative about their respective backgrounds, which is why they haven't. The same simply cannot be said of Africans and my parents and I share this view.
: : : : : Such prejudice would serve us all well if ignorant people like yourself would realize that color is NOT the defining characteristic of race. Genetically speaking, human beings are far more varied and complex animals that western 'intellectuals' would have you believe, and we are subject to the same laws of nature that govern every other living thing on this planet. Think 'Darwin' instead of 'MTV'. Do yourself and your bloodline a favor and try to be more selective in the future.
: : : : : : Calm down John--you sound like Hitler. You don't know me and so you can't assume I am not proud of my heritage. I'm Greek-American, I speak the Greek fluently, and almost allof my relatives still live in Greece. Growing up I was raised amongst Greek values and traditions, and I still hold them close to my heart today.
: : : : : : However, as you noted yourself, only a TINY percentage of the population is greek, and I can't limit my relationships to that tiny population, especially when I live in a VERY diverse area of the US. I am not surrounded by hundreds of Greek men all the time, like I would be if I were living in Greece. And since I have no plans of moving there. I was born and raised in America, where independence is cherished and where I was taught to treat all fellow humans (despite their race, beliefs, etc.) EQUALLY. I cannot just discard those values when it comes to my relationships.
: : : : : : Love is hard to find, and so when I found it---I held onto it. to wait for a greek man to come into my life doesn't make sense because it may never happen. My parents and the people who agree with them keep forgetting that i am not ONLY Greek, but i am AMERICAN as well. I was born in America, had American friends, and went to american schools. I try to incorporate the best of both cultures in my life. I appreciate American culture for the independence it encourages everyone to strive for. Being an individual and making choices for one's self is something to be proud of in this country, whereas in Greece it is many times looked down upon as a selfish act.
: : : : : : John--you really have no idea what you're saying. Excluding non-Greeks out of your social circles is not healthy, especially if you live in the US. If you do, you are losing out on being exposed to the different cultures around you. Each is unique in its own special way. and it is those who are different than us that can teach us the most. I'm not against marrying my own "kind", but I am against discriminating. Secondly, you are also a male and so you can't fully understand or empathize with the struggle that many GReek american girls must encounter when it comes to the double standard many parents hold over their daughters. Surprisingly, while i'm being exiled for dating a black man, my brother has been free to date several non-Greek women, including Korean, Indian, and Irish girls. And yet, my parents had NO objections...Why you ask? He's the boy!
: : : : : : In the end, the botton line is, that this is less of a matter of right and wrong, and more about my parents realizing that I'm a grown woman who can make her own choices.
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: : : : : : : : i'm having a similar situation...my parents won't except my boyfriend of two years who is black. I was ready to leave my boyfriend and follow my parents' wishes, but i realized that the only choices that will make me happy in my life are MINE not my parents. I wouldn't be so concerned about his mother, as I would be with him. He needs to take that step and deal witht he consequences of his mother not liking his parents. Many greek children are taught to put the family's wishes before their own--which often leads to unhappiness for the child. He needs to understand that he will never be happy if he lets his mother be the ultimate decisionmaker in his life. I'm 23 yrs old and by staying with my boyfriend, I have been left on my own. I'm cut off financially from my family and my parents nor siblings will speak to me anymore. But, I also don't regret my choice---I'm with a man that respects and cares about very much. I've never been this happy in my life, and I know he is the one for me. I have no doubts.
: : : : : : : : But, I keep trying to reach out to my family, calling and writing them. althought no one responds, i know i'm doing my part. I can't erase my parents' prejudices--they were raised in greece with different stereotypes and haven't been raised in my reality, where the color of someone skin is not a factor in my choice of relationships. But, I can be patient and hope that eventually they will accept me as I am, cause I am their daughter, and deserve their unconditional love. Your ex has to realize that not ALL his choices will please his mother, and he just has to take that step forward. If he really loves you and really wants to mature, then he will stick with you. If not, this issue of mother making his choices will come back to haunt him. Up until recently, i had always deferred to my parents' wishes, partly because I was still young and thought they knew better, partly because they'd give me a horrible guilt trip about how I don't want them to be happy if I don't do what they want. He needs to realize that once you hit a certain age, "mother knows best" just doesn't cut it. sometimes, our parents DON'T know what right for us.
: : : : : : : : I wouldn't be as upset with his mother, as I would be with him. He needs to realize what HE really wants more. Does he want to have a healthy relationship with his girlfriend, or does he want to have an unhealthy relationshi with his mother, trying to make her happy all the time? Which is more important to him? If it's the latter, then move on. If you try to stay with him, his mother will be a constant thorn in the relationship. I'm sure you agree that you deserve a man who can stand up for himself and make his own decisions.
: : : : : : : : Please don't think I am not being sensitive to him...i'm sure he feels caught between the two of you, and if his mother is anything like mine...the mental torment can be unbearable! I've spent nights crying myself to sleep because my parents' won't accept my choice.
: : : : : : : : I really hope he changes his mind and stays loyal to his love for you...it will be one of the hardest, yet most liberating, decisions he'll ever make. At first, he may feel like he's betraying his mother, but if he didn't stay with you, he'd only be betraying himself. You two may want to consider counseling, or maybe he and his mother could speak to someone.
: : : : : : : : Good luck with everything. I know how hard this can be, especially when you their is a child in the picture. don't forget---Your child should be your first and foremost priority here.
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: : : : : : : Your parents are right. You should stay with your own kind. Greeks make up only a tiny percentage of the worlds population. You should be proud you are Greek.
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