Posted by Nikos on July 16, 2001 at 13:00:40:
In Reply to: Re: Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs posted by Elizabeth on July 16, 2001 at 11:34:12:
Are you planning on defining what Western European means, what country is an example, and how Greece differs. By the way I don't think I was being vulgar when I was talking about women's rights, but I was merely giving two opposing views on womens rights. My choice of words are examples I have picked up from muslim women and how they see Western women as "prancing around in a short skirt". Maybe I should have one of my muslim girlfriends write what I wrote and then let's see if its vulgar, its always easier to belittle my argument since I am a man. It may be easier for you to see that veiling is the negative end, but many women in the Middle East see women in the West as vulgar in their behavior (my short skirts example). You seem to talk about nationalism quite often, well open up a book and why don't you read what supranationalism is. This is exactly what you are doing by associating yourself with "Western Europe" and attacking the "backward Middle East". So again I ask you, what is Western Europe, what country is an example, and why does Greece differ. And your right about that one person sounding like Adolf Hitler, but maybe he was just expressing the views of Austria's current Freedom Party, or maybe he was mimicking the views of Germany's citizenship laws which give persons in Russia of ethnic German descent automatic citizenship, and Turkish children whose grandparents were born in Germany no citizenship. That sounds all like ethnic hatered to me and I hope those countries don't fall in your Western Europe. So are you going to give us an example of what Western Europe is, and how Greece differs, we are still waiting. You said your husband thinks the same way, why don't you have him tell us what this Western European is?
: First of all, I'm well acquainted with history.
: Second...You appear to be arguing that you are somehow racially, or ethnically pure, while a Turk isn't:
: "we Greeks are all part of a nation, and we share a culture and the same origins"
: "Turkey is not a nation the way Greece is"
: "Turkey has people from so many different countries and of so many religions"
: Are you trying to tell me that modern Greeks all share the same ethnic origin? :) Surely you jest. As you just got through telling me...Greece as a MAJOR world power at one time. With that comes religious syncretism, intermarriage etc. Your average modern Greek is no purer racially than your average modern Turk. In fact...is there really such a thing as racial purity? I seem to recall that similar statements were made by Hitler and his idea of an Ayran ideal. In fact...the bulk of your post consisted of telling me how the Greeks are something special more or less..and the Turks are just a motley collection of poor people that smell. Thanks for giving us a perfect example of what I've been seeing here in Greece.
: >Greeks are not fanatics.
: :) UH...I beg to differ. Your statements sounded vaguely reminiscent of Adolf Hitler and his weird ideas about racial purity. I know that these views aren't only yours...because these noxious ideas are the reason I'm posting here.
: >They are very attached to their culture but they >don't go kill somebody because he doesn;t have >the same religion, because she doesn't wear a >veil or because she wasn't circumsized.
: Why don't you elaborate....since you seem to know so much. With the possible exception of the crazed Taliban in Afghanistan, who else kills women for not wearing a veil? Maybe you could tell us all. While you're at it...tell us all about who practices female circumcision.
: Also..you might do a little research into your own intolerant past:
: "Islamic rule, taking over from Byzantine theocracy, extended over populations which were already strongly impregnated with religious
: intolerance. The Byzantine state had promulgated numerous discriminatory laws in the administrative, political, religious, and economic sectors. Collaboration with the Muslim invaders having motivated many members of
: the Greek ruling classes to convert to Islam, those officials formerly responsible for the implementation of these laws now introduced them
: into Islamic legislation. These former Byzantine laws, based on religious dogma,were henceforth integrated into Islamic legislation, now justified by other theological principles. In an ironic twist of history, Islam found--in the
: countries which had come under its domination--an outstanding instrument of oppression for the destruction of Christianity, already formulated
: and perfected by the Church itself."
: (Bat Ye'or, "The Decline of Eastern Christianity: from Jihad to Dhimmitude")
: The author of this book, a Jew, is extremely critical of Islam in general...so that makes her comments all the more stinging for Orthodox Christians. Me thinks you need to wake up and smell the coffee....
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