Posted by Achilles on July 18, 2001 at 22:24:22:
In Reply to: Re: Orthodoxy vs. Ancient Hellenic Religion? posted by GS on July 18, 2001 at 10:56:16:
The Subject of Anti-Semitism in this Commentary of Discussion
Your method of probing for answers is just being reworded with the same questions going around in circles looking for something that isn’t there…with the constant amount of assumptions and misinterpretations, all I can conclude is that you are attempting to draw out some form of discriminatory response from me and somehow expose me as some type of Anti-Semitic Neo-Nazi. I take offense to that and I have to tell you that you wont find anything because you are missing the point altogether in this discussion.
Here are some of the assumptions I came across which I believe are indicators of miscommunication.
1- One little thing-Jesus Christ was not (and is not)
referred as King of the Jews by the Jews _Maya
2- New Testament has also nothing to do with the Jews. _Maya
3- The christian traditions-which you consider to be jewish- are not recognized by Judaism, and are as foreing to the Jews as to you.The only common thing is the Bible. _Maya
4- But I never heared that ancient Hellenes were also anti-semites, it was always a christian priviledge. _Maya
5- I think Achileas you got the wrong impression about the way anti-simitism was mentioned. _GS
6- On the other hand Achilleas, by saying:
"Think about it…Jesus Christ is referred to as the king of the Jews not the king of the Greeks. The foreign traditions which have been mostly forced upon the modern Greeks are Judaic based. The prophets are Jews, the bible is Jewish, the Old and New Testament is Jewish." _GS
7- You 're basically stating that the Greeks should not be Christians because Christ was of Jewish origin. That is wrong and could be taken down as an antisimitic comment _GS
I think it's clear where the Anti-Semitism is generating from.
Some Repetitiveness I found:
Here you ask the same question twice.
- You 're basically stating that the Greeks should not be Christians
because Christ was of Jewish origin
Why would you make this assumption? Could you assume instead that I was pointing out the cultural importance of maintaining one’s ancestral heritage?
- You do not seem to say yourself that Christianity is anti-simitic (something that Maya does), but i think I detect some irony on the way you put in the end: "I thought Christians were supposed to be loving and kind to their neighbors". I'm sorry if I'm wrong.
>": You 're basically stating that the Greeks should not be Christians because Christ was of Jewish origin.
Wrong guess! AGAIN! How many times do I have to repeat myself? For the second time I am basically pointing out …Maya’s Anti-Semitic response: “But I never heared that ancient Hellenes were also anti-semites, it was always a christian priviledge.”
Note: A “christian privilege” to be anti-semitic.
: Yes, but according to you in order as you say for Greeks to maintain their ancestral heritage they should not have been influenced by a judeic religion as christianity, am I right? So, you're basically saying what I said above.
Christ could have been of African origin or Asian it really doesn’t make a difference. The method of conversion to Christianity, which the Byzantines enforced upon the Ancient Hellenes, is what I disagree with.
After all, historically there were Jewish Greeks before there were Christian Greeks
: "> Would you say that I am Anti-Turkish or Anti-Islamic if I were to point out some of the obvious Arabic and Turkish influences in parts of Greece?"
: I don't understand your sentence here.
What don’t you understand. I am trying to point out a double standard in
what is being said here. Why do you refer to Ottoman rule as oppressive towards the Orthodox Christians, but fail to see the parallels between timelines? Could it be that you are biased?
Allow me to reiterate:
1- Christian persecutions of the Ancient Hellenes are tolerated. To protest the early brutal oppression which the Orthodox Christians enforced on the Hellenes is a faux pas. Past is past.
2- However, (here’s the double standard) when the Ottoman Turks oppressed the Orthodox Christians, it becomes personal. This is where the bias exists! When you are biased towards (or against) something or someone, you tend to pay more attention or attach more importance to information supporting your view, and ignore or downplay any evidence arguing against it. Your emotions colour your perceptions, effecting your objectivity.
4- GS wrote:
6- Accept the ancient hellenic religion and Orthodoxy as great parts of hellenic beliefs and tradition in general, both in their own way and in their own time, and don't try to be so negative or so positive about anything.
What if you were to accept all the wonderful things Turkey left us as a cultural contribution…Differences in culture can be a source of learning rather than points of conflict. Do you think you can do that? Probably not. With statements like the following…
“ Furthermore, if it was not for the Christian religion and the Orthodox priests (who fought, taught kids of their heritage in krifo sxolio and managed to keep the hellenic flame in the hearts of the Greeks even with the means of christianity) we as a country would still be an Ottoman province....”
I feel the same way about the Christians enforcing their beliefs and traditions on the Ancient Hellenes.
But you did not just state that christianity has influences from Judeism, you said that because of these influences the ancient hellenic heritage is not preserved, and you do not seem to like that. Am i right?
At this point, you are attempting to guess what my likes and dislikes are. What I am stating for the third time is that the “forceful” influences imposed by the Byzantines upon the Ancient Hellens contributed to the demise of traditional Hellenism. Through the burning of “books” and destruction of the ancient academic institutions like the Great Library in Alexandria for example.
Christian persecutions of the Ancient Hellenes
: ">The argument is one of ancestral lineage. Had I used the analogy of an exotic plant or animal lifeform exported to a foreign nation and the dangers of disrupting the natural ecosystem…How would you have responded? Why should distinct human cultures be any different? Try looking at it this way…a foreign entity invades the natural habitat of a local wildlife. How long before a potentially serious disruption occurs within the environment?"
: These are very strong opinions. Why do you assume that a foreign entity can only influence negatively and cause serious disruption?? There can be a very positive influence as well!!! If any nation was not influenced by its surroundings and surrounding cultures we would still be stuck in middle ages!! And humans are not just plants.(by the way potatoes were supposed to be "exotic" a few centuries ago and now they grow perfectly in the Greek lands without disturbing the ecosystem)
I did not assume that a foreign entity can “ONLY” influence negativity and cause disruption. I offered a very realistic analogy of a natural scientific occurrence.
A more suitable example pertaining to this discussion would be Christianity’s global destruction of indigenous cultures and the profound implications these actions have effected society as a whole.
Technology and Indigenous Spirituality
: Finally, about Alexander the Great, his troops and his journey to Asia do you also find it intruding and a foreign entity that caused serious disruption towards the native Asian population? Or because he was Greek and it is in our interest he just spread the hellenic culture all over the world?
Survival of the fittest…Darwin’s theory of evolution.
: Ok, that's my views, i really believe that we could have a much more constructive conversation in Greek since i would find it much easier to say what I want to say.
Unfortunately I only have a rudimentary knowledge of basic conversational Greek
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