Posted by patriwths on May 24, 2002 at 14:18:00:
In Reply to: Re: Dorians posted by kosta on May 24, 2002 at 13:58:21:
: Of course Dorians were lighter; they had blondism in the same way Montenegrans and Ghegs do--peripheral Nordic admixture. One would expect them to be lighter than regular Greeks. I never said there was no blondism.
: Celtic: that's what I meant when I said "Upper-Paleolithic." "Celt" is a rather-loose word, but it generally refers to Europe's indigenous population. Upper-Paleolithic types are from hunter-gatherer times, and they have larger heads than the average. Many Irish people are Upper-Paleolithic, if that gives you an idea of what the "look" was. There is a UP strain of people, because of the isolation, i guess, up in the Dinaric Alps. Here people can get very large; the Montenegrans, for instance, are recorded as the tallest people in Europe.
ok, so you, me, and maniatis are all on the same page, we are just using different words. I was not very keen on the word 'nordic' because it brings to mind a bunch of swedes or something. That kind of story is silly, and is clearly the attempt of
various agendas of northern european origin in the 19th and 20th centuries to either denigrate modern greeks or to piggyback on the glories of our own past by claiming a relation. Yes, the Celts are the more or less indigenous population of most of europe.
The germanic types (goths, franks, germans, northern russians, danes, angles, saxons, and so on) came into europe from the iron age on, partly superceding celtic europe. (Slavs are a very recent arrival. Everyone who knows their history books knows that they only
came to europe in the seventh century AD) (bulgarians, who are of a turkic origin, came from central asia and migrated westward in the late 5th and early 6th century. They came into the balkans in the end of the 6th century)
Anyways, back to Dorians, yes, if the dinaric-alpine people are akin with the celts, then yeah we're all talking about the same thing: the Ellhnes were of that branch of 'dinaric alpine' people who came to the aegean around 2200 BC, the Pelasgian/minoans were the mediterranean type, and the dorians were a different or cousin tribe of the same basic stock as the
Ellhnes were; perhaps lighter in feature than the Ellhnes, but in the same general build. Yes, they (and some other celtic people) are among the tallest en europe, though in general the Ellhnes tend not to be very tall, just average height. The pelasgians were short, possibly 5-10 cm shorter.
True that the pelasgian features are not so common now. I think in large part their bone structure was dominated out by the physiology of the Ellhnes and later the dorians, though the fact that most greeks have the olive toned skin is a pelasgian feature. Even in Epiros where I am from, we do not have pale skin but
have some (lighter) variation of the olive skin. (though because i work indoors under fluorescent light with no window, i am probably pretty pale/pink :-)
In any case, i am sickened by all the bizarre politically motivated claims of this that and the other about the origins of the greeks, when the facts are clear in front of us (even if we have a few rounds at it before we settle that were tlkaing baout the same thing after all :-)
I still dont know which way the Ellhnes came to the central part of the aegean world. Did they come from Pindos and Thessalia, or did they come from Ionia and asia minor?
Another thing that is sickening is how the turks think they somehow have some heritage from asia minor just because they live there now, like that is somehow _their_ past. nice try, guys. their past is full of barbarism, and it is out in the steppe in central asia. That's their home.
Though, it is sad but true that many turks have greek-like features: who knows how many greek women were wed to turkish men, how many greeks converted to islam to join the enemy or escape the emperor's taxes, how many more were forced into conevrsion by the ottomans, how many turned their backs on their greek
roots and mixed with the turks? I know some turks who look very greek, from the southern coasts of asia minor. What a tragedy that our very own blood has been hijacked by the enemy and is used against us! (though most of the sotry of the ottoman empire was the story of greeks. the janisaries, the bureacracy, the 'rumaika' that we all still
use to describe their convoluted system, the patriarchs who worked with the sultans to expand their own power, they all were greeks, working against the greek idea.)
suffice to say, the greek race is alive today and just about unchanged from the ancient times, and hasnt changed really since the late bronze age, and even that was a minor change, the dorians, and the real change hasnt been since the early bronze age.
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